Episode 15 - Tim Barrett - Cultural Intelligence for High School Students
Hello everyone!
This week’s episode of The Shift is extra special because it’s my first in-person interview since the pandemic! I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Tim Barrett, the head of Saint Andrews Institute of Learning in Noosa, Australia, to discuss how he’s helping students expand their knowledge of Cultural Intelligence (CQ). As a fellow member of the CQ Fellows 2023 cohort, Tim is someone I’ve come to admire for his passion and creativity in education.
We met in a lovely Sydney hotel (you might notice a bit of background noise in the episode), and it was truly refreshing to have a face-to-face conversation about the work that excites us both. Tim and I delved into how he’s inspiring students to recognize those moments of “shift” in their thinking—those times when you can literally feel your perspective broadening.
Tim is all about creating what he calls “Magic Time.” It’s a term he coined during our CQ Fellows retreat, and I think it perfectly encapsulates the energy and flow he brings to his teaching. Whether he’s working with his students in Australia or immersing them in learning experiences overseas, Tim is intentional about designing environments where students feel encouraged to question, reflect, and grow. He believes that these “magic” moments of creativity and learning can lead to powerful shifts in perspective, and I couldn’t agree more.
During our chat, Tim shared some of the techniques teachers are using to help students develop empathy and think differently. One of the tools he uses is Project Zero and visible thinking routines from Harvard University. These approaches help students become more aware of their own thought processes and how they can better understand the perspectives of others—skills that are so important for building cultural intelligence. I love how Tim’s focus isn’t just on academic success, but on helping students grow as empathetic, culturally aware individuals.
One of the highlights of our conversation was learning about the e-learning Cultural Intelligence course Tim has designed for his students. It’s so inspiring to see someone actively preparing the next generation to navigate a world that’s becoming more interconnected every day. Tim is really committed to fostering hope and curiosity in young people, and it shines through in everything he does.
I came away from this episode feeling truly inspired, and I hope you will too. Tim’s passion for education and his belief in the potential of young people to create a better future is infectious. As he said, “Magic Time” isn’t just about what happens in the classroom—it’s about creating meaningful experiences that shift our understanding of the world and the people in it.
If you’re curious about how educators are helping students experience moments of shift and expand their cultural intelligence, you won’t want to miss this episode. Tim’s insights into learning and empathy are incredibly valuable, whether you’re an educator, a parent, or just someone interested in understanding how we can all grow in cultural intelligence.
As always, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Have you had any “Magic Time” moments in your own learning journey? Feel free to share your reflections in the comments below or reach out to connect.
Looking forward to hearing from you and continuing the conversation!
Listen below on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
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Trisha 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:07
I would like to acknowledge the Tharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
Trisha 00:00:43:09 - 00:01:25:00
Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organisational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives. And why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness. The Shifts in thinking. As those of you have listened to some of the earlier episodes, will be aware, cultural intelligence CQ capability to be effective in situations of diversity is made up of four areas motivational, knowledge, metacognitive, and behavioural, and it can help us as we move across cultures.
Trisha 00:01:25:02 - 00:01:50:10
And today I'm speaking with someone who works with students. I'm here with Tim Barrett. He's an Australian educator who works with high school students and has been working on cultural intelligence at their level. I met Tim through CQ fellows, and we have been recognising each other's work since. So, Tim, why don't you introduce yourself?
Tim 00:01:50:15 - 00:02:10:07
Thanks, Trisha. Hi everyone. Great to be here. I have to say, I have listened to quite a few of the previous episodes, so I'm stepping into very big shoes. But, glad to be here. Yes, I am in education in Australia, have been for the last 25 years or so, and CQ is one of the areas that we've really honed in on
Tim 00:02:10:09 - 00:02:34:02
as a school, the school I work in, and we'll be talking a little bit about that through the podcast, but my background is a bit of a varied one. I was, straight out of school. I went to school in Sydney, joined the Army, and I was in the Army for four years, and it's actually in the Army when I realised I wanted to be a teacher, funnily enough, because I don't know if you know this, but in the military, you actually have to do a lot of learning.
Tim 00:02:34:02 - 00:02:48:03
You have to learn about, weapons, tactics, just how things operate. And the way they taught was so bad. I vowed to myself I could do a much better job. So that was my impetus for getting into education.
Trisha 00:02:48:04 - 00:02:48:21
Your drive?
Tim 00:02:48:21 - 00:03:13:04
Yes. And then I became a PE teacher. And then I did that for a few years, and then I went and studied, theology. So another degree and I became a college chaplain. So I mixed my PE teaching with, chaplaincy work. And now I am the head of Saint Andrews Institute of Learning, which is a research and innovation unit within Saint Andrew's Anglican College in Noosa in Queensland.
Tim 00:03:13:04 - 00:03:14:01
A beautiful part of the world.
Trisha 00:03:14:03 - 00:03:30:09
Beautiful part of the world, absolutely laid back, also wonderful. Yeah, warm. Just really nice. Yeah. So interesting. Because our next question is around culture. And so a lot of people would say, you know, the Gold Coast culture that sorry, Noosa is above the Gold Coast.
Tim 00:03:30:09 - 00:03:31:04
Sunshine Coast.
Trisha 00:03:31:04 - 00:03:39:13
Sunshine Coast culture is one they love. But Tim, what is the culture other than the culture you grew up in that you have learned to love and appreciate?
Tim 00:03:39:15 - 00:03:58:15
I love to travel and I have a real love for numerous cultures, one being Japanese cultures. We have a partner in school in Japan. I have a lot of good Japanese teachers as friends, and we often have exchange students from Japan, who come to the school. And I and I love, many aspects of their culture.
Tim 00:03:58:15 - 00:04:34:17
But if I was to have to choose one, it would have to be the Khmer culture of Cambodia. And, reasons being, I've been to Cambodia more than any other country in the world. 14 times I've been to Cambodia, mainly with, school trips, taking students to work, alongside my people. I've seen, if you know, your history, you know, Cambodia had a very, rich and prosperous, history, many, many years ago in, in the 70s under, the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot, obviously, a lot very sad recent history there is just rebuilding out of that.
Tim 00:04:34:17 - 00:04:59:02
So their culture is a fascinating one. I love the curiosity, the tenacity and creativity. just to, you know, make, make the best of the situation they have and how they've learned to adapt. I love and their food is amazing. It's not Vietnamese, it's not Thai. It's just their own. I think beef lok lak is my favourite dish that I.
Tim 00:04:59:04 - 00:05:18:19
I try and recreate at home. It's never quite the same. I think I need that. I think that's Kampot pepper. I think I think it's some special peppers I have that I don't have in Australia, but, yeah, the Khmer people, just a beautiful, generous, very gracious people. And really, it has been quite powerful over the years.
Tim 00:05:18:19 - 00:05:37:09
I think I first went there in 2006 and, and to see the development, the some of it not great, just different influences coming in, but, just to see how the country is slowly getting back on their feet and, and lifting that that standard of living across the board is, is been quite, you know.
Trisha 00:05:37:11 - 00:05:40:06
And especially given their traumatic history, they experienced.
Tim 00:05:40:08 - 00:05:55:13
Their still very raw history for a lot of them. But yeah. So that is a culture that I just love. And I've taken my boys, I've got I have three boys. And when they were quite little I took them to Cambodia. So they could experience that. Just they just loved it. So, Yeah.
Trisha 00:05:55:15 - 00:06:09:20
Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that. So as you know, this is a podcast about shifts, and I'm wondering if you can tell me about a time when you experienced a shift, when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective.
Tim 00:06:09:22 - 00:06:35:18
so I have a story and it's, it's it might seem very insignificant, but but looking back and it was actually the very first big shift for me. And I was in the Philippines, actually, and I was I was a school teacher and I was working in some schools in the Philippines because the part we were working in just had a huge youth problem, you know, dropping out of school, you know, some some drug addictions.
Tim 00:06:35:18 - 00:06:58:12
And so they were trying to get people in to kind of give a bit of an encouraging message about the positive aspects of school in education. So I was over there doing some work and I had a hat on, and I was walking through this little barangay, this little village, with my interpreter, and I had my hat, as was the custom I was in my in my 20s, had my hat pulled down quite low.
Tim 00:06:58:14 - 00:07:12:23
Yeah, like a cap. Yeah. Just pull down kind of quite close to my eyes. Down low. Just how we used to wear it. Yeah. And my interpreter said, oh, don't wear your hat like that. I said, what do you mean? He said, oh no, no, no, lift your hat higher up on top of your head.
Tim 00:07:12:23 - 00:07:15:01
I'm like. Oh no, this is how I wear my hat
Tim 00:07:15:03 - 00:07:36:21
It's fine. It's like, no, no, no, you don't understand. In our village, if you wear, you put your hat down like that means you're up to no good. Like you know you're going to do something wrong with people don't want to see you. And I'm like, oh. And so. And then what to seem insignificant story. But for me, I can distinctly remember doing something that is normal back home.
Tim 00:07:36:23 - 00:07:57:05
Doing exactly the same thing can be interpreted so differently in that situation. And so that was a real shift for me about running a bit of a filter through what I say, what I do, and how that might be interpreted. And this is before I ever knew anything about cultural intelligence or anything like that. It was just something that that I realized.
Tim 00:07:57:05 - 00:08:00:19
So that was a yeah, yeah, a memorable moments.
Trisha 00:08:00:21 - 00:08:08:04
Oh, why do you think you saw that other perspective instead of, you know, sticking to your, oh doesn't matter.
Tim 00:08:08:08 - 00:08:29:08
Well, I have to admit my, my initial reaction was, oh, what are you talking about? Yeah, this is how we wear a hat. But I think it was quite earnest when he said it? And I think it was his. And I can understand now looking at it, he was obviously trying to win approval in this village to try and get them to turn from crime and things.
Tim 00:08:29:10 - 00:08:53:02
And I can see how it would look now if the person you're trying to help were, you know, encourage people to take a positive path, is someone who they look at and think, oh, they're dodgy Australian terms. Dodgy. I can see that would just blow everything they're trying to do. So he was quite earnest. I think that is is, intensity of no, you can't do that really hit me so.
Trisha 00:08:53:07 - 00:09:01:06
And good that you were able to see that and then stick to that. Yeah. You work with students and their development.
Tim 00:09:01:09 - 00:09:01:14
Yeah.
Trisha 00:09:01:14 - 00:09:13:05
in terms of their own personal skills. Yeah. And that means you must have been thinking about them and how to help them shift in some of the ways as well. So it might be attitudinal shifts. It might be behavioural shifts.
Trisha 00:09:13:19 - 00:09:18:09
To tell us about your process of working with them and what you're thinking about as you doing it.
Tim 00:09:18:11 - 00:09:45:12
Yeah. Look that that is basically what teachers try and do every minute of every day is we try and we try and shift whether it's shifting their thinking to learning something new, appreciating, a new perspective. so what we try and do is, you know, a few different, different ways. The biggest thing and the subjects, the areas I teach, or to do with, I think, personal development, at the moment.
Tim 00:09:45:16 - 00:10:14:02
So I think helping students have the ability to empathise is the way that you shift their thinking. Last, you think you can you can get them to regurgitate something. Yes. And that's fine. They'll they'll just give you what you want. But if we really and I think all educators deep down, this is what they want to do, is make lasting change so that that you almost become obsolete because the children have adapted that belief system for themselves.
Tim 00:10:14:04 - 00:10:33:09
In order to do that, you really need to get them to understand and empathise for themselves. And there's a few ways we can do that. We can take them on, immersive trips. And when we do do trips overseas, we do do local trips. We do do service learning, working with the Salvation Army, with the homeless, like all these things we try and do.
Tim 00:10:33:09 - 00:10:38:22
I mean, obviously you need to have the resources to do that. We're fortunate. The school I work at does have that.
Tim 00:10:39:09 - 00:11:01:08
But There are other things that we use, visible thinking so and so out of habit, visible thinking tools, tools designed to the routines that the students can learn to kind of step out of their own little bubble. As we know, one of the greatest challenges of young people today is that they are in their own little world that has been created just for them.
Tim 00:11:01:10 - 00:11:22:04
There's no compromise. Whatever they want to watch, listen to, whenever they want to, they can. So to help them to step outside and empathise, we use these physical thinking routines, and get them to articulate that. And then we can have discussion around that, and they can hear different people's perspectives on why this perspective might be for the greater good.
Tim 00:11:22:05 - 00:11:25:14
Rather than just the individual benefit. So it's a feeling.
Trisha 00:11:25:20 - 00:11:28:18
So how does the visible thinking routine work?
Tim 00:11:28:20 - 00:11:59:09
well, there's a there's quite a few of them. So if you just search up Harvard, came out of Project Zero, a guy called Ron Ritchhart, kind of developed a lot of schools use it these days. there's a couple of examples. Is, feelings and options. So you choose some sort of situation or dilemma. It kind of might be, any situations that could be, you know, students tasing someone else because of a different background or they're having a different type of food for lunch, whatever it might be, and then you just step them through.
Tim 00:11:59:10 - 00:12:20:00
So you might get them to identify who are the people involved in this situation and what challenges they facing. The second step is feel. So what do you think each person is feeling in this situation? why might the situation be hard or challenging for them? Step three is imagine, imagine options how the situation could be handled. So then they come up with lots of different ideas.
Tim 00:12:20:02 - 00:12:42:20
some of them might be quite negative, but then they go through and circle which option might lead to the most positive outcome, where people feel good or are taken care of. And then the last step is say, so, thinking about the idea, what would the people involved say to make that happen? So that's that's just a simple routine, that planning class and work in small groups and then share back.
Trisha 00:12:42:20 - 00:12:43:23
Yes.
Tim 00:12:44:00 - 00:12:52:12
it actually exposes people to different ways of thinking rather than just their own. because that's the biggest challenge we find. Sometimes students are just locked in because they know no different.
Trisha 00:12:52:14 - 00:12:55:19
Well, they've been raised by their parents to think a certain way
Tim 00:12:55:20 - 00:12:56:21
That’s right and if the parents aren't thinking and encouraging
Trisha 00:12:56:21 - 00:12:57:09
And society might be enforcing.
Tim 00:12:57:09 - 00:12:59:09
Yeah. Yeah. So
Trisha 00:12:59:10 - 00:13:12:23
So do you find that people can step into that way of thinking and then just like, regurgitate just the wrong word, but then it becomes a habit. And so then they will step through those process.
Tim 00:13:12:23 - 00:13:33:13
Yeah. Well that's why they're called routines. And the power behind them is that we use them across the school. So they're not just walking into some class. They're doing some random activity. They go oh we're doing this. And there's another one is the three whys. So might be why might this topic, or question matter to me? Why might it matter to people around me like family or friends or in the country?
Tim 00:13:33:19 - 00:13:49:04
And then why might it matter to the world? And get them articulate So they're doing that in geography, history and personal capacity class like they become familiar with actually expressing different viewpoints or the ability to actually see perspective.
Trisha 00:13:49:04 - 00:13:52:15
To switch that perspective from me to others to the world.
Tim 00:13:52:17 - 00:14:01:09
Yeah. In terms of you're talking about shifting and you have people that that is a very powerful. And as I said, a lot of schools use these tools.
Trisha 00:14:01:09 - 00:14:02:02
It's brilliant.
Tim 00:14:02:02 - 00:14:02:22
It's been working.
Trisha 00:14:02:24 - 00:14:10:11
And so do you have sort of moments where you can see that happening. You know, when you sit there and you see it, students making those shifts.
Tim 00:14:10:11 - 00:14:29:10
Yeah. I think for me, because I run a lot of overseas service trips, I mean I if you, if you want to rank things. Yeah. They are the most powerful. And coming back to the story about Cambodia going to Cambodia, and there's a visible thinking routine that, goes I used to think dot dot dot. Now I think
Tim 00:14:29:10 - 00:14:49:14
And we get the students to do that at the end. And that they are some of the most powerful statements, things like I used to think going over we were going overseas to help people, but now I think they've helped me more than I could ever help them, just in terms of their resilience, creativity, positivity.
Tim 00:14:49:15 - 00:14:50:06
Quite powerful.
Trisha 00:14:50:10 - 00:14:54:23
Yes. Which shows a shift in thinking about where we sit in relation to other people. Yeah.
Tim 00:14:54:24 - 00:15:03:01
And and the value we place on material wealth as a source of happiness and everything we want when.
Trisha 00:15:03:03 - 00:15:03:19
Yeah
Tim 00:15:03:19 - 00:15:04:18
It’s not true at all.
Trisha 00:15:04:20 - 00:15:21:04
Yeah. That's right. We're not necessarily the happiest country in the world, even though we might have things that other countries don't. Yeah. So thank you for that. Your your work with cultural intelligence. Tell us a little bit about that and what you've been doing for students with that what you're in the process of developing.
Tim 00:15:21:04 - 00:15:21:23
Yeah.
Trisha 00:15:22:00 - 00:15:25:15
and, and I guess what you're hoping for with that as well.
Tim 00:15:25:17 - 00:15:53:23
So also we've used intelligence quite a few years. at our school, we've actually, been honoured with a couple of Australian education awards with, for our use in cultural intelligence. And how we've used that is not only training with students, but, before we do look at our situation in Noosa, I don’t know of the listeners are aware of the areas of Australia, I don't think you'll probably get more of a more monocultural area than Noosa.
Tim 00:15:54:00 - 00:15:56:05
Maybe Sutherland.
Trisha 00:15:56:07 - 00:16:00:03
Sutherland Shire where I live, yes, is quite monocultural as well.
Tim 00:16:00:04 - 00:16:24:05
But yeah, this this is. And look, as we say, there's nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed about. It is what it is, but we need to acknowledge that it isn't the real world. We talk about the Noosa bubble, and if our students are going to be going to university and big cities or collaborating with people around the world, which is what they will be doing, you know, they need to know how to adapt to different cultural situations.
Tim 00:16:24:07 - 00:16:49:17
And so we've been working very hard trying to give them opportunities to do that with people coming in, overseas trips. And part of the training has been in cultural intelligence, pre-trip testing, our training cultural intelligence, and then post trip testing. And we have seen the four areas of cultural intelligence, which you explained in the introduction, increase on average, about 30% for each student.
Tim 00:16:49:17 - 00:17:12:13
And it's interesting, the different trips, if they're less, I'll use the word intense in the younger years, then it doesn't increase as much as there's a direct correlation with immersion, what they see how immersed in a local community they are. That's an increase in cultural intelligence. So we've been doing that for quite a few years. I want wouldn't I wanted to scale that up.
Tim 00:17:12:18 - 00:17:43:16
And so what I've been writing through the the CQ fellows program is a course in cultural intelligence for young people. And this is young people in schools or universities or even, you know, it could be in, in corporate settings. So if you've got a young workforce, that's a self-guided, course online, short videos, questions, reflective questions to get a base level knowledge about mainly the the cultural dimensions and how, people sit on that spectrum.
Trisha 00:17:43:17 - 00:18:05:04
Yeah. So, Tim’s speaking about the value differences. So there's a number of, interviewees who have spoken about different values and how that impacted their thinking, you know, from, collectivism and individualism to high power distance and low power distance. And so those cultural continuums of thinking are often the things that we're not aware of within ourselves.
Trisha 00:18:05:06 - 00:18:13:10
They are things that we grow up just accepting as ways of thinking. And so to understand that people think differently often creates quite a shift.
Tim 00:18:13:12 - 00:18:42:18
Yeah. Yeah. So that's what it is. So it's online course that our students will all do. But then we will share that with other schools. around the world. And we already had a lot of interest actually had a few, not for profit companies who do work in other countries who are going to make every person who volunteers with them do this course, because they do see the value in being prepared to go into another culture and not, you know, stuff things up and, you know, offend people.
Tim 00:18:42:18 - 00:18:53:01
It just, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So that's what we've been working on. So it's quite an exciting, project and a lot of work, but, I think it's going to, have a lot of benefit.
Trisha 00:18:53:03 - 00:19:06:21
and so in terms of, I guess, helping other people to work with it, other people going to be using it just as, off the shelf resource, do you think, or teachers use it and teach to it?
Tim 00:19:07:01 - 00:19:27:05
Yeah. Well, there's a couple of ways. So it will be a standalone, micro-credential. So it will be, so it's called CQuest, and so you can get it for your school, and you could just have it as an optional for students if they want to use it as part of their resume It's linked to International Baccalaureate and Australian curriculum outcomes.
Tim 00:19:27:05 - 00:19:46:23
So you could chuck it in a, you know, humanities course or something and do it, and it'll tick off all the boxes which teachers will love. As you know, student, individual work or hybrid. What's the videos, we discuss this in class. Sort of, resource. so yeah. Three different options.
Trisha 00:19:47:02 - 00:19:53:09
Fantastic. Yeah. And so the outcomes of it include helping students to make those shifts, of thinking.
Tim 00:19:53:11 - 00:20:04:23
Oh 100%. And that's, that's the whole idea at the end. And even that language is in throughout the course. Yeah. I mean, how has this shifted your thinking after doing. Because you want them just it's a big part of it is self-reflection.
Trisha 00:20:04:23 - 00:20:05:04
It is, yeah.
Tim 00:20:05:04 - 00:20:07:15
So and getting them to understand.
Trisha 00:20:07:17 - 00:20:17:01
So the self-reflection component that you built in is that like journaling based is it discussion based? What's the situation?
Tim 00:20:17:01 - 00:20:35:22
So basically it is just getting them to kind of put themselves on a scale because I have, made it so that you can just follow the bouncing ball go through on an online course. So as soon as you start taking journaling discussion, we will encourage them to do that on their own. Yeah. But the course is more slide.
Tim 00:20:35:22 - 00:20:47:15
How about this situation okay. How you feel. If it's a classroom based then obviously it's discussion and it would guess how that might be. Yeah. But journaling is a powerful, you know, articulate thoughts.
Trisha 00:20:47:17 - 00:20:54:06
But even the process like as you have intimated, there's a slider and so they're thinking about that process and then having to move
Tim 00:20:54:06 - 00:20:55:06
Yeah.
Trisha 00:20:55:08 - 00:20:56:07
And so that in and of Itself
Tim 00:20:56:07 - 00:20:57:00
Yeah.
Trisha 00:20:57:06 - 00:20:58:06
Is a shift tool
Tim 00:20:58:08 - 00:20:59:04
Yeah.
Trisha 00:20:59:10 - 00:21:01:00
That, you know, we haven't sort of thought about before
Tim 00:21:01:00 - 00:21:14:00
And questioning. Why not if, if, if, if they're not planning on moving if they don’t, if they have a fixed mindset about something. What's the reason behind it? Get them time. Ask the hard questions. So yeah.
Trisha 00:21:14:04 - 00:21:24:17
Love that. Yeah yeah. Fantastic. Well thank you so much Tim. Is there anything else you want to add that you haven't, you know, you thought about that you haven't had a chance to share or.
Tim 00:21:24:21 - 00:21:54:17
I don't think so. I, I just see huge potential just in, in young people. And it's always been my dream, I guess, to, you know, we, we talk about all this work in cultural intelligence with executives and people who are in business. But if we can grow this, you know, from, from the grassroots level, I think we can, you know, really hopefully make an impact in the world around us with the increased understanding and, relationships, which I know is a, a lofty ambition.
Tim 00:21:54:17 - 00:21:56:09
But, you know, we have to start somewhere.
Trisha 00:21:56:09 - 00:22:00:04
Absolutely. And let's aim for lofty ambitions and to change the world.
Tim 00:22:00:09 - 00:22:01:18
Fantastic.
Trisha 00:22:01:20 - 00:22:32:00
Thank you so much, Tim. Really appreciate, all your thoughts and the stories that you've shared here. It's wonderful. And thank you, everyone for listening. And please, if you would like to tune in next week, push that follow button on your app, on your podcast app. And we'd also love it if you could rate us and see you again next week.