Episode 19 - What We've Learned So Far - Part Four

In my most recent podcast episode, I took some time to reflect on the key themes that have come up over the past five interviews. It’s always a little magical to look back and notice the patterns that emerge in people’s stories, especially when they talk about those powerful moments of shift—you know, those aha moments when your perspective changes, sometimes in unexpected ways.

If you’ve been following along with the podcast, you’ll know that I’ve had the chance to chat with some fascinating guests: from Tanya, the expert on Third Culture Kids (TCKs), to Tim, who works with high school students in the Philippines, and Greg, who’s transforming the health and safety profession in New Zealand. These conversations have touched on everything from cultural intelligence to leadership and empathy, and it’s been incredible to see how these different perspectives all weave together around a few key ideas.

Moments of Discomfort (and Joy!)

One of the big themes that’s come up again and again is the idea that moments of shift are often moments of discomfort. Shifts in perspective can be unsettling—it can feel like the ground is moving under your feet. Tanya, for example, shared a story from her time in Beijing where she was thrown off by something as simple as not being able to say "thank you" in the way she was used to. For Dawn, a global leader, her shift came in a gut-wrenching moment of reflection while working in a medical evacuation.

But here’s the thing: not all shifts are uncomfortable! Some of them are moments of pure joy, like when Greg, a health and safety professional in New Zealand, greeted his audience in Tongan and saw their eyes light up. That simple act of connection created a shift in the room, bringing everyone together. So while discomfort is often a part of growth, it’s not the only way we experience shifts—sometimes they come with a smile.

The Importance of Trust

Another theme that’s really stood out is how important the person facilitating the shift is. Whether it’s a friend, a mentor, or even a complete stranger, the person who helps you see things differently is often critical to that moment of change. Tanya talked about her "Gor Gor" (big brother) in Beijing, whose simple question helped her see herself in a new way. Similarly, Tim shared how his earnestness and sincerity helped him connect with the people in a village in the Philippines, ultimately creating a shift in their attitudes.

For those of us who work in coaching, training, or even just day-to-day relationships, this is such a good reminder. If we want to help others experience shifts, we need to show up as people who can be trusted. It’s about creating that space where someone feels safe enough to explore new ideas, ask questions, and maybe even get a little uncomfortable.

Speaking the Right Language

One of the other key ideas that emerged was the power of using common language to help people shift. Whether it’s greeting someone in their own language (like Greg did with the women in his training session) or adapting your words to fit the context, language can be a bridge to connection. Loren, a keynote speaker, shared how she adjusts her language depending on her audience—speaking in more technical terms for cybersecurity professionals and using different language for HR teams. It’s a simple idea, but so powerful. When we meet people where they are, using language they understand, we’re much more likely to create moments of shift.

Thinking Tools for Shifting Perspectives

This episode also introduced me to some amazing thinking tools for fostering shifts, thanks to my guest Tim Barrett. Tim works with high school students, and he shared how he uses visible thinking routines and Project Zero’s thinking tools to help students build empathy and perspective-taking skills. I’m still blown away by the simplicity and effectiveness of these tools, like the Three Whys—which helps people see things from different levels of perspective.

It got me thinking about how we can use these tools, not just in the classroom, but in coaching, training, and even our personal lives. Sometimes all we need is a simple framework to help us step outside of ourselves and see things from a new angle.

Let’s Keep the Conversation Going

There’s so much more I could say about this episode, but I’ll stop there for now! If you haven’t listened to the episode yet, I highly recommend going back and checking it out, especially Tim’s segment on thinking routines. I’ll also be posting more about this on LinkedIn, and I’d love to hear your thoughts. Have you experienced a moment of shift recently? What helped you get there? And what are your goals for creating shifts with the people you work with or interact with?

Let’s keep this conversation going—I’m always up for hearing your stories and learning from each other!

Listen below on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

• Transcript

  Trisha 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:39:16

  I would like to acknowledge the Tharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

  Trisha 00:00:39:18 - 00:01:08:10

  Hi, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organisational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives. And why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness. What can we do to help ourselves and help others to experience shifts when needed?

  Trisha 00:01:08:12 - 00:01:33:19

  I've been speaking to a range of experts in different fields. If you've been following along, you'll know that I've interviewed some people from very different work and thinking backgrounds. And today I'm doing what we've done before, practising really what we've been discussing in each of the episodes. I'm going to spend some time reflecting on some of the key themes that were woven through the different episodes and expertise areas.

  Trisha 00:01:33:21 - 00:02:06:09

  So this is what we've learned so far. Part four. Firstly, the continued themes that I've already commented on in some of the earlier reviews. It's so interesting to see some of these themes continue to just weave their way through people's conversations. First of all, point one shifts are often moments of discomfort. Not always. There were some in the last few sessions, and by the last few sessions I'm speaking about Tanya and TCKs.

  Trisha 00:02:06:11 - 00:02:31:21

  I'm speaking about, Tim and high school students. I'm speaking about Greg and health and safety professionals. I'm speaking about Dawn and Global leaders, and I'm speaking about Loren and keynote speakers. So looking at all of these people as they've spoken about doing their work and their experiences of shift, I'm just going back and looking at those moments that they spoke about.

  Trisha 00:02:31:23 - 00:02:58:18

  So yes, shifts are often moments of discomfort, but not always. There were a few in this series where some of them were sort of moments of almost of joy, but speaking about the ones of discomfort, you can hear it as people share their moments. So Tanya in Beijing, why can't I just say thank you? She said, and Dawn in the medical evac reflection moment.

  Trisha 00:02:58:20 - 00:03:30:06

  I was gutted. Loren, in her moment of recognising who she was and how she'd been shaped by so much more privilege than she had realised, because she could pass as white. There's a sense of of stepping into the confusion, the unknown, the shame, definitely the discomfort. What does that mean for us as coaches, intercultural coaches, cultural intelligence coaches, or people who are helping people to build their cultural intelligence?

  Trisha 00:03:30:12 - 00:03:55:13

  Their CQ awareness. Well, I think we need to be comfortable stepping into that discomfort with them. Culture is key to self. It's key to identity. And having that shift can feel like the earth is falling from underneath us, and we need to walk alongside people with gentleness and support, asking the questions gently and holding them with care as the shift happens.

  Trisha 00:03:55:15 - 00:04:19:20

  And then, because my thought usually goes to coaching first, because I do at the moment, more coaching than training. What if we're not coaching though? But we're in a training setting and we're facilitating, and sometimes there is much harder when shifts happen to be able to gently support people while they're in a room surrounded by other people. And we still need to facilitate that discomfort and acknowledge it.

  Trisha 00:04:19:22 - 00:04:42:12

  And I think the best thing we can do is recognise for everyone that discomfort is part of our emotional and metacognitive growth. Own that and support people with it. Okay, second major point again, the person in the shift is often crucial. The person that might be asking the question or helping you to see something. They're often really critical.

  Trisha 00:04:42:12 - 00:05:14:20

  And it might be something about their character or the relationship or the way they're interacting with you. Again with Tanya, the TCK expert speaking in Beijing, this guy, whose comment helps her to see everything different is someone that she calls her Gor Gor, her big brother. It's a deep friendship relationship between the Nigerian guy and the Australian woman. As she says, I got outside my own mind and was able to look at myself externally because someone I loved and trusted just asked a question.

  Trisha 00:05:14:24 - 00:05:38:17

  He didn't say anything. He didn't tell me anything. He didn't say I was doing anything wrong. He just asked a question with Tim in the Philippines, the guy who wanted him to wear his hat differently so that the villagers would be open to listening to him. His earnestness and his sincerity were what caused him to stop and listen and follow his instructions.

  Trisha 00:05:38:19 - 00:06:00:19

  That motivation to to change because the guide who was helping him was so earnest about the mission that he was on to bring change to the Philippine village. So if we are stepping into situations where we hope to be that person who perhaps is helping others shift, we need to be showing up as someone who can be trusted.

  Trisha 00:06:00:21 - 00:06:19:17

  Greg in New Zealand, reaching out to people in the workplace and asking questions about the work they are doing when accidents are occurring. He said so what is it at that point of time of an accident that made somebody think that what they were doing was safe work and that it was the right thing? You can't know that by guessing.

  Trisha 00:06:19:17 - 00:06:48:22

  You can only know that by making them feel comfortable so that they can tell their truth. So that means we need to shift as well. Point three using common language. Again, going to Greg in New Zealand in his moment of shift, which was actually almost a point of joy rather than a point of discomfort. He shared how he recognised the power of language as he gained the attention of the women in his audience, as he greeted them in Tongan.

  Trisha 00:06:48:24 - 00:07:13:07

  Just a small thing. But as he said, their eyes lit up, they smiled and they were more present in the training session because of that simple act. And Loren, the keynote speaker, researcher, she spoke about the ways she uses language to the people who she's speaking to and how she changes her language. So in the cyber security presentation, she talked about CQ code.

  Trisha 00:07:13:09 - 00:07:32:19

  You know, she speaks to people who come from that programming background. She's often sitting with that sort of language. And when she spoke to the HR people, she spoke more of their language. We need to be able to come alongside people, speak to them in their language, where they are at. So that we can help them shift. Okay.

  Trisha 00:07:32:19 - 00:08:00:07

  Point four using thinking tools. Loren, again, she talked about the power of the acronyms that she used and the models that she uses to help people understand cultural intelligence. And she spoke about the awareness that comes across people's faces as the model makes sense to them. But she's converted that model not from the standard way of explaining it, but to a very specific way that works for that audience.

  Trisha 00:08:00:09 - 00:08:27:03

  Dawn spoke about leaders thinking through the lenses of empathy, vision and depth, and how that helps people to see where they might be overplaying some strengths or underplaying others. And for me, in this last series of interviews with my guests, the most mind blowing discovery was from Tim Barrett, who shared the resource that teachers often use, the visible thinking routines and the treasure of Project Zero.

  Trisha 00:08:27:05 - 00:08:50:07

  Tim talked us through the practice of helping students gain empathy, using the question steps. He spoke about building perspective, taking skills, using the three whys. These are really powerful tools and if you haven't heard the episode, I'd recommend you go back to listen to Tim Barrett working with high school students. We can use these tools in coaching and in training.

  Trisha 00:08:50:09 - 00:09:09:22

  I'm just scraping the surface there in those two, two things that I've mentioned, but there are so many resources in Project Zero. It blew my mind. I'll put a link in the show notes and you can go back and listen to Tim's episode. And I do hope to interview someone from Project Zero in the future to dig more deeply.

  Trisha 00:09:09:24 - 00:09:32:23

  So I think those are four key things that came through. But there were a heap more threads that just showed lightly. If you like, in this most recent part of interviews, and I want to see if we can unravel them more in the future, and I'm interested in your thoughts. Tanya's intuitive cultural awareness that she gained as a TCK. How does that develop?

  Trisha 00:09:33:00 - 00:10:11:10

  And as coaches or trainers, how can we support that? Does she still need to develop her her planning component? Another one was the role of immersive experiences to help us increase our cultural metacognition. Tim spoke about taking students into very different environments to their own and helping them to learn through that. We know that travel in and of itself doesn't always increase cultural intelligence, but we do need to build into the experiences so that we can make it more likely that cultural intelligence is impacted and people's learning is effective.

  Trisha 00:10:11:12 - 00:10:38:06

  So I'd like to dig into more into that sometime in the future as well. And in moments of peace outside of our everyday experience, it's almost like the opposite of the immersion. Dawns medevac and how that gave her a chance to step back from the immersion she had previously been living in and see things more clearly, see herself more clearly in the way that she was operating. And for Dawn.

  Trisha 00:10:38:07 - 00:11:06:01

  There was a moment of prayer and reflection, and for others it would be a moment of peace and looking and reflecting really powerful skills. I know we've spoken about, journaling before and how that helps us to reflect as well. So I will be coming back to journaling. I do promise. And then one of the things that stood out a bit more for me this time was that moments of shift occur also at an organization or in a whole profession.

  Trisha 00:11:06:03 - 00:11:37:06

  As Tim spoke about the teaching profession, how teachers are learning, how to help students think differently. Tanya referenced helping teachers think differently about third culture kids and cross culture kids as well. Dawn spoke about how she wants to shift global leaders in their thinking, and Greg spoke about health and safety professionals and the shifts they've already been through as a profession, from a compliance space to a more collaborative way of thinking.

  Trisha 00:11:37:08 - 00:12:13:18

  And then the shift that he hopes to achieve in New Zealand, to increase cultural intelligence in the profession, to reduce the number of workplace deaths. Big goals. Greg shared that big goal. Loren shared her big goal to impact 5 million people by increasing their cultural intelligence. I'd love to hear your goals. I'll be sharing about this episode in LinkedIn the week after it's been published, and I'd love you to jump in and tell me your goals to achieve shifts with the people in your life and your work, and maybe how you're going to achieve them.

  Trisha 00:12:13:20 - 00:12:33:06

  I'd love to hear that, and really would love to encourage you in any way that I can. So thank you so much for reflecting with me in this time. Maybe you've seen other themes emerge if you're a regular listener, and if so, I'd love to hear those as well. As we always say, if you haven't already, push that follow button on your podcast app.

  Trisha 00:12:33:06 - 00:12:40:02

  Please do that so that you will again receive the next episode next week and be able to listen to us again on the shift.